Chants+Democratic

//__Chants Democratic: New York City & the Rise of the American Working Class, 1788-1850.__//
With our focus on the theories that underpinned the artisan culture of New York City last week, I thought it best to concentrate this week on how these theories changed over the period leading up to the American Civil War. With that in mind here are a few questions that will allow you to see how working class [|mentalite]. > > > Here are a few questions to get us started:
 * How did the thinking of individuals like Cornelius Blatchly, Robert Owens, and Langston Byllesby compare with the "artisan republicanism" of early-nineteenth-century New York City?
 * How does the views of Frances Wright, Thomas Skidmore, and the members of the Working Men's movement, and the General Trades' Union compare with those of the above?
 * How does the "Republic of the Bowery" compare to the "Master's Ideology" during the the 1830s?
 * How does the Washington Temperance Society compare with previous temperance organizations?
 * What does the rise of nativism and Michael Walsh tell us about the changes that took place among New-York-City workingmen in the 1840s?
 * In what ways were the composition and methods of production of the artisan class of New York changing between 1788 and 1825?
 * What does Wilentz mean by "artisan republicanism"? How was it evident in the working and non-working lives of the city's artisans?
 * Which of the city's workshops were "bastardized"? What caused this to happen? Why were other trades less vulnerable?
 * How did the entrepreneurs, radicals, and working masses respond to the changes brought on by bastardization?

I liked Wrights idea of reform from an educatinal point of view. As written in pages 178-179 she explained that education should be available to everyone regardless of wealth. This gave people a chance to start at equal ground. They say knowlwedge is power and those who didn't have knowledge were at a disadvantage. Her radical ideas allowed the freethought movement to take place in NYC. Her theories certainly grabbed the interest of jouneymen and small masters. I guess this fitted well in Wilentz republicism where things were done for the commonwealth. - Concetta

In reading chapter seven it is interesting to see how the masters banned together with the courts agaist the journeymen/unionists. It to me seems like the picture being painted was that the masters were now becoming the elite upper class part of society and the journeymen along with the others who were apart of unions were considered to be of a lower class. They were seen as people who spent their money on gambleing, partying and drinking. Another interseting point that stood out to me was the fact that race came into play when when it came to who was a skilled enough worker and who was not. There was also a fear that not only would blacks be infultaring their work but also their neighborhoods and this caused situations to be tense and sometimes out breaks of violence. Stacy

Does Wilentz believe the new nation's national holidays are the center of assembly and celebration? It seem that every grand event, meetings, and marches, speaches and declarations, are on such days as Independence day and Evacuation day, and even Eire Canal celebration seem to superseed Christmas, Easter and New Years. Its like July 4th is the new New Year. Is being a Republican the most important concept to artisans and journeymen? Do thier Christian values take a back seat to thier Republicism or are thier new values a combination of both? It seems that to Wilentz, early American New Yorkers are consumed with thier guilds and commonwelth.-Dominick


 * Dominick:

Thanks for your posting. You are not too far off in your comment about republicanism being the most important concept for artisans and journeymen? Think a bit about why that might be. Start with the idea of republicanism. What is it? How does Wilentz describe work conditions in the workshops of NYC? If I am a master, what benefits do I receive? What responsibilities do I have? For whom am I responsible? What about a journeyman? What do I get out of being a journeyman? What is my goal?

The key to the first half of the book is to identify what changes were taking place in the workshops in New York City at this time? What was the cause(s) of these changes? Make sure you pay attention to the third set of questions above? What does Wilentz mean by a "bastardized trade"?

Thanks for your posting. See you Tuesday Chuck K. **

To me, what Wilentz meant by artisan Republicanism is the belief in a collective equality. That the artisans must work together to shake off the shackles of the aristocracy and those in positions of political power. It is now their time to take hold of their lives and make decisions as a group and help one another to make a decent wage and have the chance to take part in the American dream. People should no longer control others, or pass on property from one child to the next, but everyone should work together for the collective good and enjoy the fruits of their labor and not be shut out from society. In addition, through temperance, hard work, and equality of education, artisans could control their fate and do well within society. As New York became the center of industry, so did the power of the merchants, financiers and lawyers, and the artisan work fell to the wayside. The crafts continued to subdivide their work, which led to underpaid workers and debased artisans and in turn was the bastardization of artisan work. Shipbuilding seemed the only trade that was not bastardized and continued to be revered for its skill and labor. It also seemed to me that a lot of infighting amongst the artisans who tried to create the artisan republic led to their demise, is this the case? -Teresa

Thanks for your insightful posting. Is the concept of the artisan republic limited to issues of money and control of the work place? You might think about the four concepts of republicanism mentioned by Wilentz on page 14 in the introduction of the book. How might a "good life" be defined for the artisans and small masters mentioned in chapter one? You mention having "the chance to take part in the American dream." How are you defining this idea? How might the artisans and small masters? How about those masters who are starting to "control inputs" rather than supervising and training a crew of men? Keep up the good work!
 * Teresa:

Chuck **


 * In chapter one I found it to be very interesting that the New York Artisans were very famous for the great work they did, but received little money. As well they had very little power compared to the elite. Back then I feel like consumers had more power then the producer. In todays society I believe that the producer has more control of the price they want people to pay. A producer in todays society sets a price and the consumer can either take it or leave it because the price will most likely not change.**


 * Question - Everyone seems to say that they were either a republican, democratic or part of the general society. Who was to say who really belonged and who didn't if everyone had their own ideal or set of principles to what qualified a person to be republican, democratic, or part of the general society?**


 * Macielle Donohue**

Macielle: Thanks for the posting and the important question you asked. In an attempt to answer it, think about what it required to advance from apprentice to journeyman to master. Not only was there an acquisition of skills, but there was also a sense of "commonwealth," a responsibility to those who came before you to train those who came after you. Why? What gave an individual status in this work environment? What responsibilities came with that status? To what extent did one "owe" something to the group? Think about the large masters. Even as they began to acquire greater wealth, they still felt a sense of responsibility to the "Trade." They established educational and vocational societies, etc.

With that said, think about what happened when there was a change of thinking. What happened with the introduction of labor-saving machinery? How did this affect the sense of shared values based on the acquisition of skills? How did the shift from responsibility to the collective to individual initiative shape the work environment and the class structure in NYC? W. Jonathan Varela
 * From your readings and interpretations of the New Yorker working for equality as the new American character of republican seems almost a redefinition of many definitions for Republicanism or an interpretation with many different viewpoints. I believe people coming to this land were just thinking of survival and opportunity not in so many ways thinking of a new identity that will help them be a part of the American culture- many would disagree. What I mean these immigrants were in a sense assimilating or saving what was left of their culture at the same time defining new grounds to which their children might one day identify as their own. Equality of workers, yes, that was the goal but of course some of the few who gained wealth change their perspectives on what republicanism means and how to use that identification to their benefit of their new American opportunity. I am curious to know what current Chinese and Mexican immigrants feel, see, and interpret about their experiences with the American economy and their place in American society as a whole- are they permanent residents or are they leaving with their American wealth to reestablish themselves in other lands or their countries?**

Jonathan: Thanks for your posting. Watch so that you do not jump the gun on the issue of immigration. Wilentz in the first part of the book concentrates primarily on native-born workingmen. Keep in mind that he is exploring how the idea of an artisan republicanism shaped the sense of the "Trade" among these skilled workers. He does mention immigration in the section we read, but it is only in passing. He will return to this topic in the second half of the book.

Your point, however, is well worth contrmplating. Why would immigrants be considered a threat to the artisans of NYC? Is it merely that they are perceived to be willing to work for lower wages? How might the fact that they come from places where participatory democracy is not the norm affect the response of American-born men whose sense of social status and masculinity depends on the maintenance of the "Trade"? What are your thoughts?

I will get back to you on this. Working on the reading

In reading the next couple of chapters I found it very interesting and excited that in chapter six women

After reading chapter six, I found the role women played in the GTU interesting. The fact that were not admitted to the GTU or to the men's union is quite surprising. When I think of hard labor, I usually think women always play a role. Does Wilentz imply that women have "clumsy" hands or was that a general statement for both sexes? Immenah Hosin

=W. Jonathan Varela's Late Response: **Going back to this book, brought me to new insight on my part. Immigrants are a progressive movement, back in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and now the twenty-first century, when earning money no matter what the cost might be. I do see and hear that Mexican Americans, legal and alien, make the profits even with lower wages needed to return back and live a comfortable life. If any connection can be made, I would focus on Metropolitan Industrialization in Chants Democratic page 141:** //**A summary of the main types of changes in different trades confirms this metropolitan diversity. But some basic themes do run through the histories of all the crafts. In the very largest consumer trades, skilled tasks once performed by artisans were divided between a few well-paid journeyman and many more underpaid hands, including, in some cases, women and (increasingly) poor immigrants. top of page 141, The Bastard Workshop, 1825-1850**// **This is a sense of proof and a form of history repeating itself if cliches are okay for now. Wiletz and other historians are aware that many immigrants in connection to journeymen actions and stories are relevant and significant to the development of labor rights, economic shitfs, and racial nationalism from the standpoint of native Americans. White Americans, in the research Wiletz speaks of, are confronted with cheaper labor at their expense; today again white and other now more situated black Americans are faced with growing illegal immigration - taking jobs. However it must also be noted that many Americans, "Would not do the jobs of the Mexicans in America" if the choices for employment are high.** **In summary the "trade" and the American worker are evolving or changing to the current flows of capital. In a free market society there reactionary profits to win through competition are social norms that affect all people in most capitalist societies. The people or population are caught in this whirlwind of profit seeking and survival tactics that affect the culture of working people overall; the upper class are masters of puppets in a sense to the revolution of industry, migrations, territorial expansion. Men and masculinity are fondations for indentification but it is imperative to mention that Mexican and other national workers are men with their own conflicts of profit seeking.** **Class driven work and American men or women are proud for the simple fact that it is who they are and what they do that defines and supports American Republicanism.** = =W. Jonathan Varela -=